Curse

Coloneh · Jul 05, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

When I run a PuG i always make everyone ping their build, and i kick anyone who dosnt have a rez, self-heal, and enough DPS/Support to benefit the team and isnt willing to change their build. Im not wasting my time on hopeless 7 year olds who's parents let them play GW.

Dr Strangelove · Jul 05, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Honestly, if you are one of the people that normally ask others to "ping their builds", why aren't you playing with heroes instead? If you're looking for that degree of "control" (especially if you're forcing someone to play a cookie-cutter build), why not just do it yourself?

It has nothing to do with forcing cookie cutters or control freakishness. Much of the time, it's just to make sure we have enough damage, support, and defense in a team. When I do ask for tweaks, they're usually relatively minor, and usually players are smart enough to understand them as well (despite what you'd think from the average PuG)

For example, an alarming number of warriors ping tanking builds to start off with. Instead of giving them a skillbar, I say "Hey, I promise I'll keep you alive if you focus on smashing things in the face." Almost every time, the warrior pulls out a halfway decent build and we go on our merry way.

At any rate, how do you expect players to get better without any input from other people? Not everyone reads the forums, you know.

EDIT: Coloneh, kicking someone outright is being just as much as jerk as someone who refuses to change or work with the group.

Ecklipze · Jul 05, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I'm sorry for wanting to check that the person i'm playing with is not a complete moron, my bad.

Tarkin · Jul 05, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Normal Mode
Start of Tyria, Cantha and Elona... you can play with naked warriors, firestorm eles and smiter monks...

Midlle of Tyria, Cantha and Elona... you need some armor, warriors must agroo something, monks need to heal something and eles must do some damage...

End of Tyria, Cantha and Elona... mending w/mos must die, because monks must heal stupid warriors that have striped enchants and get 120 damage from emeny mesmers, you need a solid build to tank, no place for all time enchants in a tank. Eles need make huge damage... Monks need to make >fast< and good heal...

Elite Areas... tanks need a real good build that interact with monk enchants to prevent strip, heal and damage reduction, eles need make >real<, >fast<, and >same time< damage...

Hard Mode.

... copy and past elite areas here ...

I remenber the time i play fow 2 times per day... it a 20 months ago... i use builds people say stupid, but 6 months later thats builds are a must...

And i remenber playing elite areas first time with my >godly< old ascalon build and fail like a noob...

Conclusions.

A build that work in one area not work same way in other.

In some areas some builds are a >must<.

No one (good) leader want a stupid in your party. Because 1 hour to find a team, 5 min to die because 1 member of the team not make your job well or make a mistake...

And the big conclusion, some leaders are stupids, worst that a w/mo with mending, and whatchfull spirit agaisnt 4 level 28 mesmers... If you want to use your godly build, be a leader wast 1 hour to find a team ( or play with henchs) and play, dont cry a river...

First time you lead a team lost 1 hour to find a group and someone with a bad build ruin the quest or mission... you will ask for "ping your bar please"

Be a leader before cry a river about "ping your bar please"...

FalconDance · Jul 05, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

If asked to ping, I do so (if asked nicely, that is). I've never been kicked for not having a pre-requisite build. That's the beauty of highly changeable skillbars.

I've also not kicked anyone for their build if they were willing to adjust it for the mission.

Yesterday, for example: Dasha Vestibule mission. A ranger joined us who had Barrage, Ignite Arrows, Kindle Arrows and Charm/Comfort. On suggestion, he dropped the pet. But I kept thinking, why in the world would you carry two preparations along with an Elite skill (with very short cool-down time). Whatever build he ended up taking in (I don't remember now), he D/Ced, unfortunately, early in the mission, and we went on to win through with Masters.

elk · Jul 05, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

I haven't read all the posts but I haven't seen anyone comment on the statement made by the OP. That is, you have 2 campains now - I'm assuming prophicies is complete and mostly UAS for the toon your on and you're working through factions. That in itself limits you to what you can run and is something you should always discuss with the group. Some folks are going to boot you just for that reason but others will realize that you can't run their "leet build" because it's just not available to you. As stated repeatly, pinging your build is just fine and keeping an open mind to suggestions and changes is a good thing. An 8 man PUG *SHOULD* be able to come up with some reasonable ideas worth listening to. If not, than as others have said, you're probably better off finding that next group anyway.

elk

Tarkin · Jul 05, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

When I run a PuG i always make everyone ping their build, and i kick anyone who dosnt have a rez, self-heal, and enough DPS/Support to benefit the team and isnt willing to change their build. Im not wasting my time on hopeless 7 year olds who's parents let them play GW.

Is about it i talking about... you cant wast 10 min or 2 hour (i try to find a complet team to kill mallyx for 1 weak some months ago) and lost all in 5 min because monk dont have prot spirit or have 5 skill that cost 10 energy each, warriror use a axe and have sword skills...
ele have 5 fire skills and 6 in fire and 1 earth skill with 16 in earth...
Not agaisnt about out of the box builds, all againt stupid builds, how many times i lead and take out of the box >>>>>>good builds<<<<<< pugs in my team...

Zinger314 · Jul 05, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

About the MM controversy...I won't go into detail, but I suggest you read my thread from 3 months ago about Hero synergy if you want effective MM Hero builds for NM.

But I'll add that you can use practically any variation of an MM build in Normal Mode and still win. Hard Mode, however, is different.

Blackest Rose · Jul 05, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

I have no time for any PUG with an elitist attitude and who kick people because of their build.
I myself leave those PUG's immediately.

I have all the time in the world for a PUG who helps school each other on what makes a good build or not.
If someone says "can you bring <insert skill here> because it's better in this mission or better than <skill x> because etc..."
That's good and many people pick up good tips including myself.
<How many Wammo's use Lions comfort instead of healing sig....>

Remember any mission can be hero/henched (I did THK with bonus and even the one when running 3 crytals between pedestals) so if you have an elitest PUG attitude please do that.
Then there's only one person to blame when you fail....

Evilsod · Jul 05, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

This is a build i see quite alot:

I do infact see it every time i select 'Zhed Shadowhoof' on my Necromancer. Why is he running such a stupid build? Note, pre-MoP nerf. He is running it because my second account has almost no Elementalist skills unlocked, i couldn't be arsed to train up Norgu and my Necro needed something to snare the 2 Runners in Moddok Crevice.

Is it a good build? Not a chance in hell.
Does it stand in well for another char that could've done the job? Yes.
Would you accept such a hero build in your pug for Moddok? Probably not. If things go tits up in H/H i only mess things up for myself because i'm using a quite obviously gimped build. I'm not about to make pugs suffer for my account only having Nec, Monk and Mes skills unlocked.

There was an example earlier (page 3?) about the Warrior/Monk using Sig of Rejuv, Sig of Judgement, etc. The excuse was 'it got me this far'. Why should i take him? If that build got him that far it means nothing, the build is stupid. Its not 'outside the box' or 'elitist to kick him'. The build should be effective... if the build is effective i'll take them, if its not and obviously has no real thought put into it, they change or leave.

If i pug something i aim to finish it. Good players can play weird builds. People that act like they have no idea what they're doing using crap builds, taking offence at people saying its not that good don't deserve a spot. If your not willing to take on suggestions from players with more experience than you thats your problem.

If you can't justify why your using such a build, then its obviously not that good. Even Healing Hands/Mending wammos can justify there builds, some of them can use it quite effectively.

Stormcloud · Jul 05, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I ping when asked as there is no harm in it, I am by far not a great builds guy and am very open to suggestion. All I can say to the askers of pingage is to remember that not everyone is closeminded so dont kick me without suggesting some skill choices!

TheRaven · Jul 05, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

About the MM controversy...I won't go into detail, but I suggest you read my thread from 3 months ago about Hero synergy if you want effective MM Hero builds for NM.

But I'll add that you can use practically any variation of an MM build in Normal Mode and still win. Hard Mode, however, is different.

Yep, I read it when you first posted it and I really appreciate the time you took to post it. I've been using your Necro and Elementalist builds for awhile now on my heroes and they work well. I modified the Ele build a bit, but kept the necro MM as is. I've never played an MM myself, so I'm not gonna try and improve on a skillbar I barely understand.

However I am running into a lot of the Elitist attitude that I'm sure you are as well. (Ok, maybe not. I doubt you ever PUG) I'll ping Olias's build and 9/10 times the leader says add Flesh Golem or kick him. I usually reply that this build works very well without fleshy, but I'll end up having to kick poor Olias anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackestRose

That's good and many people pick up good tips including myself.
<How many Wammo's use Lions comfort instead of healing sig....>

I love Lion's Comfort. It has a permanent spot on my Warrior's bar. (Um, are implying that's it better or worse than the Heal sig?)

I believe I met one of the wisest players ingame a few months ago. He said something that has stuck with me. My elementalist was bored one afternoon. I was doing some routine quests and the quests took me thru the Chantry of Secrets. We had favor and I spotted someone yelling... "GLF for FOW. 4/8 need Nukers and SS Necro. Have monk"

Like I said, I was bored and looking for something different. We almost never have favor so i joined up with him. Immediately he asked me to ping my bar. I did and I think he suggested a minor tweak, but overall it was a good bar. We spent about another 10 minutes filling up the team. While we were waiting, I said I'd chip in for the entry fee and asked how much he wanted. He replied:
"No thx. I got it covered. I figure if I'm paying then I can take my time and form the team that **I** want rather than accepting just anybody who wants in."

Chthon · Jul 05, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

This is kinda sliding offtopic into something that would be more fit for the necro forum...

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I wonder what is good MM ... one that can do awesome
job of raising 10 minions and keeping them alive? pfft...

I'd considered that a bare minimum for being mediocre.

Quote:

1&2: You just dont understand what makes hero MM so damn good. They can multitask. And to it damn good. for hero MM there is no difference from bomber and master

The distinction between MM and MB has little to do with one's multitasking ability, and everything to do with the fact that they are working at cross purposes.

One needs expensive minions, because those are the ones with good DPS; the other needs cheap minions so they can afford to turn them over quickly. There's a 10 minion cap, so you simply can't do both without doing both poorly.

One needs to use BotM to preserve their expensive investment; the other needs to actively destroy their minions to reach decent DPS. If you actively destroy your minions, like a good MB, you're working at cross purposes with what you should be doing as a MM. Destroying a healthy 25e bone fiend is a huge waste, especially when bone minions cost only 7.5e. Spending energy and life sac on a minion via BotM only to turn around and putrid flesh it a moment later is wasteful too. On the other hand, tossing around death nova without actively destroying your minions gives you very poor DPS - you'd be better off using another skill in DN's place.

No matter how good you are at multitasking, you simply cannot do two contradictory things at the same time and get results as good as if you had picked one task and did it well.

Quote:

3: It minion TANK skill. Besides you ignoring original minion wich is pretty good, you get two targets for cost of one, this skill alone rapes Flesh golem as tank (600hp vs 440+400hp).

One word: Armor. That's 600hp w/ 104AL vs 440hp w/ 72 AL + 400hp w/ 64AL. Let's try looking their BADITTKY (Before-Armor Damage It Takes To Kill You) as a rough measurement of their actual survivability: It takes a little over 1286 before-armor damage to take down a flesh golem. Conversely, it takes just under 542 before-armor damage to kill a shambling horror, plus just under 429 before-armor damage to kill the jagged horror, for a total of only 971 BADITTKY. 1286 vs 971. The fleshy is a lot tougher.

Quote:

(besides, bleeding from them is awesome trigger for virulence.)

I'm not a huge fan of virulence in the elite slot. Minion bombers should already be causing poison with DN and disease with putrid flesh, so it's totally superfluous for them. Minion masters can get more degen with a better AoE effect by combining rotting flesh and well of suffering. IMO, getting a slightly weaker effect in one skill instead of two is not worth the elite slot when there's other decent elites available.

Quote:

Anyway, MM is not rocket science, all you really need is 16 in dead, fiend and BoTM. Anything over that is extra.

I think your very low standard what you will accept as a passable MM for your party is why you're so keen on the heroes. I do have to concede that a large proportion of players who consider themselves MM's are inferior to heroes at the job. But that doesn't somehow make the heroes any better at it. They still suck. All that means is that a lot of players suck worse.

Blackest Rose · Jul 05, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

I love Lion's Comfort. It has a permanent spot on my Warrior's bar. (Um, are implying that's it better or worse than the Heal sig?)

Nope - Lions Comfort is way better than healing sig (outside of Adrenaline denial of course) but since healing sig has been around since prop I'm still surprised how many Wammo's still use it because they don't know about lions comfort.... even though they already have the skill.

Evilsod · Jul 05, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackest Rose

Nope - Lions Comfort is way better than healing sig (outside of Adrenaline denial of course) but since healing sig has been around since prop I'm still surprised how many Wammo's still use it because they don't know about lions comfort.... even though they already have the skill.

Lions Comfort is overrated... it doesn't even heal that much unless your speccing in Tactics quite alot too. And since i never really bother with a self-heal on my Warrior anyway since neither are all that good as far as PvE is concerned i'd rather save the slot for something useful.

Virulence is a god-awful elite... if i want to cause Disease, i'll take Rotting Flesh. If i want to cause Poison, i'll just wait for a minion to explode. If i want to cause Weakness... i'll hope i'm running an Enfeebling Blood Necro too, nearby multi target weakness > single target elite weakness.
And i never use Fiends in HM. Fiends can't bodyblock. Fiends don't stand close enough to ranged foes to make Death Nova useful. Fiends are likely targets due to low health and stand in around the same place your casters do, AoE anyone? I just use Golem, it can withstand a fair bit of damage before it dies. I would use Jagged Bones, but since it was gimped with its useless recharge thanks to PvP theres not much point in an elite to get maybe 1 or 2 free minions per group that are weaker than the rest. Besides the MM is usually busy spamming Death Nova anyway.

rick1027 · Jul 05, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

what usually gets me is the group that kicks you without trying to give you a better build. the other day i have this weird build i use for farming a specific boss and its a different build not one id use for a mission and i was the last one invited into a group. actually they invited me before my lag had wore off and i accepted them. they want me to ping my bar seeing i barely had time to think i ping my bar which I'll admit was horrible for what was needed instant kick. the thing is i do adjust my build too work with a party even though i might like a different skill over another if a party wants one I'll bring it. funny thing is i got ticked corrected my bar did mission with henchies and heros got masters then zoned back to the area later to transfer stuff between account cause one of my chars on my other account is there too and the group was still there. my only comment is at least give the person a chance to change his bar.

Omniclasm · Jul 05, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick1027

what usually gets me is the group that kicks you without trying to give you a better build. the other day i have this weird build i use for farming a specific boss and its a different build not one id use for a mission and i was the last one invited into a group. actually they invited me before my lag had wore off and i accepted them. they want me to ping my bar seeing i barely had time to think i ping my bar which I'll admit was horrible for what was needed instant kick. the thing is i do adjust my build too work with a party even though i might like a different skill over another if a party wants one I'll bring it. funny thing is i got ticked corrected my bar did mission with henchies and heros got masters then zoned back to the area later to transfer stuff between account cause one of my chars on my other account is there too and the group was still there. my only comment is at least give the person a chance to change his bar.

Reminds me of a time when I was kicked from a pug for being an assassin. I join a pug for Ice Caves of Sorrow just for a change. Couple more people join, one happens to be a mesmer. The first thing this mesmer says is...kick the assassin, assassins suck. Before I could respond I was kicked. I grabbed some trusty hench, and finished the mission. At the end of it, I thought I'd whisper the team that kicked me and see how they were doing.

They failed the mission.

zwei2stein · Jul 05, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The distinction between MM and MB has little to do with one's multitasking ability, and everything to do with the fact that they are working at cross purposes.

One needs expensive minions, because those are the ones with good DPS; the other needs cheap minions so they can afford to turn them over quickly. There's a 10 minion cap, so you simply can't do both without doing both poorly.

One needs to use BotM to preserve their expensive investment; the other needs to actively destroy their minions to reach decent DPS. If you actively destroy your minions, like a good MB, you're working at cross purposes with what you should be doing as a MM. Destroying a healthy 25e bone fiend is a huge waste, especially when bone minions cost only 7.5e. Spending energy and life sac on a minion via BotM only to turn around and putrid flesh it a moment later is wasteful too. On the other hand, tossing around death nova without actively destroying your minions gives you very poor DPS - you'd be better off using another skill in DN's place.

No matter how good you are at multitasking, you simply cannot do two contradictory things at the same time and get results as good as if you had picked one task and did it well

You still dont understand. Because you combine aspects of MMing and Mbombing, it does not make you inefective.

on one hand you have your expensive fiend.

on other hand you have same fiend with nova.

Now, which is better? Second one, ill tell you. because that one has added value. Realize one thing: Because you put nova on something you does not mean that you will immeditalley follow with minion destroying skill.

But in case your minions get to aoe or some meele mosnter gets to taste them, it makes all the difference. This is how Bombing and minion mastery are able to coexist just fine.

You see, MM has all the time to nova everything. All you have to to is ensure that skills are in right order so that AI prioritizes the ones that are vital and uses extras for, well, extras.

Besides there is always downtime between combats that your hero mm can spend preapplying novas.

Think of it as premptive sttrike, those novas will be there in moment you need them most.

---

Anyway, you seems to have ... hmm, high standarts, care to share?

Because no matter how i look at its, MM is just freaking simple. Raise asap something dies, spam healing skills, repeat. There is hardly anything human ever does on top of that, any positioning or fancy stuff like that is simply destroyed by minions, you main challenge is not to get bored. Hero on the other hand ...

Splatter Mcnasty · Jul 05, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Griefing 7 other people is hardly answer for legitimate question - congratulations, you are being selfish prick on internet.

It is team game afterall. If you are not able to get you ego over it, you should not play the game.

How is that griefing 7 other players?

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right. There are so many skills available to characters, that nobody should be forced into one specific set of skills.

If anything, its the group leader trying to force a build down a player's throat who is the real griefer. Making me, or anyone, play your way makes you the selfish prick on the internet.

Jetdoc · Jul 05, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

It has nothing to do with forcing cookie cutters or control freakishness. Much of the time, it's just to make sure we have enough damage, support, and defense in a team. When I do ask for tweaks, they're usually relatively minor, and usually players are smart enough to understand them as well (despite what you'd think from the average PuG).

What you're saying is exactly what people should do in PuGs. However, that can be easily accomplished by simply asking the other party members what "type" of build they are playing (e.g. I'm a Blood Necro or a Fire Elementalist) and requesting that they bring along a particular skill.

Pinging builds is a quicker way to achieve that...but my personal experience is that more parties (than not) use pinging for either (1) party selection or (2) micromanaging others' builds. That's why I'm naturally leery to pinging my build...especially if it puts me in the defensive position of justifying why I've chosen to bring certain skills over others.